tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post6423467150871507636..comments2024-03-14T23:52:09.893-07:00Comments on The Neurocritic: Simon Baron-Cohen, Empathy, and the Atrocities in AfghanistanThe Neurocritichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08010555869208208621noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-47726785301009476892015-11-16T11:47:23.557-08:002015-11-16T11:47:23.557-08:00Empathy is not some sort of fixed trait, it is hig...Empathy is not some sort of fixed trait, it is highly dependent on the context, the people involved, mood etc it is also a poorly defined concept that is frequently assigned a positive value. To describe people as lacking empathy is often a way of making a value statement rather than an observation. I've often felt the association of psychopathy and lack of empathy is particularly daft. When the behaviour of some of the most dangerous people is described they are not describing someone without the ability to recognise the emotional state of their victims. They are describing someone who knows exactly the terrible emotional effect of their actions and enjoy it, they are also perfectly capable of manipulating people based on their emotional awareness. Empathy can be developed in people and to suggest that its useful to conflate people with mental illness that clearly impairs social information processing is not helpful. Then pretending that brain scans give any useful information about complex cognitive abilities removes what little credibility that remained. Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16880619508841119163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-70378730828283864632011-08-19T10:09:38.798-07:002011-08-19T10:09:38.798-07:00Thankyou for writing this. I am in Australia and h...Thankyou for writing this. I am in Australia and have complained to Stigmawatch about this book claiming people with Borderline PD have zero negative empathy. I have also complained to the book publishers.<br />The good news is that anyone who knows anything about psychiatry knows this is rubbish. The bad news is that ignorant BPD haters will use it to ad fuel to their hatred.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-60635766084575252712011-06-29T13:52:52.491-07:002011-06-29T13:52:52.491-07:00Heads-up... this could be quite significant... the...Heads-up... this could be quite significant... the professor may have been a little erm... artistic in licence to write this book <br /><br />http://incorrectpleasures.blogspot.com/2011/06/is-this-guy-for-real-baron-cohens.html<br /><br /><a href="http://incorrectpleasures.blogspot.com/2011/06/is-this-guy-for-real-baron-cohens.html" rel="nofollow">link</a>Socrateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12525104555859213125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-80221117532037763962011-06-16T09:50:26.821-07:002011-06-16T09:50:26.821-07:00> At March 30, 2011 5:40 AM,
> Neuroskeptic ...> At March 30, 2011 5:40 AM,<br />> Neuroskeptic said... <br />><br />> "borderline, psychopathic, and borderline<br />> personality disorders"<br />><br />> Eh? Is that a typo, or does he think that<br />> "borderline" is different to "borderline<br />> personality disorder"?<br /><br />It's a typo.<br /><br />Other quotes on the Web of the same passage (e.g., http://integral-options.blogspot.com/2011/03/simon-baron-cohen-science-of-empathy.html ) have<br /><br />"narcissistic, psychopathic, and borderline personality disorders".jimfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04975754342950063440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-36948040293718496082011-05-02T13:11:45.351-07:002011-05-02T13:11:45.351-07:00The human ape can mimic empathy, and so many non-...The human ape can mimic empathy, and so many non-empathetic people can stumble or slip into dreadful relationships. Sadistic people empathize but use the information maliciously. Synthetic empathy can be imposed by culture: we are to empathize with our colors and dehumanize those who aren’t sporting them. Empathy comes in spheres, I think- more empathy with kith and kin, less for distant strangers. This allows us to live in comfort even when we know of remote others in distress. The borderline-types I have known, on the other hand, have remarkable empathy for remote- and even fictitious- populations or individuals (or the photos thereof), but none for the person standing before them.bkonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-90051192893163634062011-05-01T03:36:58.520-07:002011-05-01T03:36:58.520-07:00I think Simon Baron-Cohen needs to stick to ASD ma...I think Simon Baron-Cohen needs to stick to ASD material rather than expressing 'expert" opinions about personality disorders- he hasn't done extensive work with real people with PDs, has he? The empathy business is getting very tangled between perception and response- you can be empathic towards someone's plight and hate their guts- and countless other combinations. As for saying "hi funtioning autism is not a disability"- jonathan is getting onto more dangerous ground- I've been arguing with heaps of people on the interwebs about disability & deficit in ASDs. There is a movement amongst parents and some teachers and terapists to say ASDs are not "neurotypical" but that they have no deficits in anything- just differences. I argue that from the majority "normal" [for lack of a more neutral word] point of view, ASD people DO lack something [in perception, or neural processing or expression]- and that's a deficit. It doesn't make them less worthy people, just requires some effort to fit in and understand. On the personal side- my borderline PD friend who just suicided was a very empathic person when he was feeling OK, but not very nice in any aspect when drunk and trying to make the world pay for his bad treatment at the hands of his father and the fact his mum had never come to help him. Let someone else talk about war conditions and the limits to humanity- how about some Vietnam veterans who felt they had to murder and rape ruthlessly while in Vietnam, but be loving husbands and fathers back home. It's not easy to live with the split in your head when that has happened.Murfomurfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12975382358013125434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-82712550094320390882011-04-06T10:51:45.341-07:002011-04-06T10:51:45.341-07:00Troeltsch: As I am a mental health professional an...Troeltsch: As I am a mental health professional and you are a epidemiologist I would think you are better suited to answer your own question. But, since you ask, it seems pretty obvious that you cannot depend on diagnosing as it occurs in clinical practice. If my personal experience is anything to go by, BPD is _very_ inconsistently diagnosed. So, of course, a good researcher will have to start with some kind of diagnostic tool with comfortable reliability and go from there. This, I imagine, leads to problems in comparing research with subtle variations in the defined population (which I suppose was your point). But what can you do? We are starting with a loosely defined category based on externally observable behaviors--Cohen then ties this to a concept of empathy that is very broadly defined and quite different from other researchers' very narrow definition of empathy (theory of mind, recognition of EE in others, etc.), then he takes his correlative link to brain scan data and makes some kind of grandiose conclusions about empathy and the human condition. Cohen is all over the map with this.<br /><br />I would think that theorists and researchers should seriously consider avoiding DSM categories altogether or at least be much more cautious with them.Vircazhm Magazinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01087601235530226889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-47314356947820452212011-04-04T22:35:40.999-07:002011-04-04T22:35:40.999-07:00A Bitter Pill:
Do individuals with the diagnosis...A Bitter Pill: <br /><br />Do individuals with the diagnosis of BPD transfer across studies? That is, is one group of BPD patients similar to another group of BPD patients? If so, are they are only benchmarked by the DSm-IV? If so, how do researchers account for potential variance in the diagnosis (i.e, someone with a more severe case)? Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide-Troeltschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05988291394950099326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-51866535699990525512011-04-04T12:19:04.009-07:002011-04-04T12:19:04.009-07:00I did think that Baran Cohen's original articl...I did think that Baran Cohen's original article was in fact a more sensitive and balanced discussion of BPD than Neurocritic's blog post seemed to imply. But, I have to agree that there is weak thinking on Baran Cohen's part regarding causation and etiology. I also found his conclusions to be way too broad, vague and not supported by his arguments. As I said before, the loose and shifting definition of empathy is also a problem.Vircazhm Magazinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01087601235530226889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-68130231254690889682011-04-03T13:14:26.499-07:002011-04-03T13:14:26.499-07:00I really enjoy your blog.
I had a different rea...I really enjoy your blog. <br /><br />I had a different reading of Cohen's argument in the article; however, I am an epidemiologist, not a psychologist, so please forgive me if I misunderstand the terminology and make an egregious error. <br /><br />I didn't think Cohen was making broad generalizations regarding any one diagnostic group (e.g., individuals with borderline personality disorder). Rather, he posits there is a “distribution of empathy” in the general population; in particular, there are a number of individuals in the left tail who express little or no empathy. These individuals do not all belong to any one diagnostic group but are allocated in three different diagnostic groups he identifies: borderline, psychotic, and borderline psychotic. <br /><br />Cohen then offers a hypothesis that these individuals, although having different diagnoses, share a common trait: structural similarities in brain scans that indicate abnormalities caused by similar experiences. These similar experiences range from abuse (both physical and sexual), abandonment, and social estrangement that caused the brain abnormalities. The key point I gleaned from the article was: These individuals don’t make up the entire diagnostic group, but probably only represent a certain percentage of the group. That is, only a certain percentage (not all) of borderlines, psychotics, has these deformities and incapacity to feel empathy. <br /><br />If this interpretation is correct, which it may be, the graph you show of Cohen’s study and his current work is internally consistent. If Cohen’s hypothesis is limited to a sub-group in the diagnostic group, it could be the BPD group shows an average higher level of empathy, but individuals that share the abnormalities in brain formation still exhibit lower empathy levels. I say could be because I don’t think he has a brain scan or diagnostic history of Marilyn Monroe to evidence she is in the group. <br /><br />There is an obvious problem with this causal mechanism that pervades work in neuroscience; that is, he is interpreting similar results on a brain scan through extrapolating similar causes that led to this result. Since the causal mechanism is largely a black box, there is really no way to make such a statement. This problem with identifying causality also calls into question his methodology in identifying "empathy" as the silver analytical bullet. Finally, it’s not clear that the identified individuals that lack empathy permanently stay at the left tail; I don’t believe empathy levels are static and it’s not clear how Cohen deals with the possibility that empathy levels change substantially from one time period to the next.Troeltschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05988291394950099326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-63422656331162478372011-04-01T15:43:42.481-07:002011-04-01T15:43:42.481-07:00Dr. Baron-Cohen is Ali G's cousin.Dr. Baron-Cohen is Ali G's cousin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-7198197254247454202011-04-01T11:02:12.315-07:002011-04-01T11:02:12.315-07:00Well I don't know anything about this Baron-Co...Well I don't know anything about this Baron-Cohen character (any relation to Sacha Baron Cohen?), but this conversation kind of highlights one of the basic problems in research psychology and its application to treatment--that is, the problem of operationalizing terms. First of all, BPD may really be nothing more thnt a loose category of behavior with very little valid relationship to any single underlying neuropsychological phenomenon. Secondly, that fact that people with BPD have a hypersensitivity to the emotional expression of others is probably well established, but if that is your definition of empathy, it is very different than care and concern for the well being of others. People with BPD are often so beset with their own overwhelming emotional reactions to the social environment that they have a difficult time developing give-and-take relationships and, for that matter, even reaching out or showing understanding of others. So is hypersensitivity to the expressions of others the same thing as having compassion toward others as the colloquial term "empathy" often implies? Clearly not in all cases.Vircazhm Magazinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01087601235530226889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-46952064352694526102011-03-30T18:54:21.025-07:002011-03-30T18:54:21.025-07:00You heard it here first. Baron-Cohen has been arou...You heard it here first. Baron-Cohen has been around so long that he's diagnosed Socrates *personally*.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-75324585045446720922011-03-30T10:45:12.424-07:002011-03-30T10:45:12.424-07:00My I suggest a further resources to learn more abo...My I suggest a further resources to learn more about empathy and compassion. <br />The Center for Building a Culture of Empathy<br />The Culture of Empathy website is the largest internet portal for resources and information about the values of empathy and compassion. It contains articles, conferences, definitions, experts, history, interviews, videos, science and much more about empathy and compassion.<br />http://CultureOfEmpathy.com<br /><br />Also, we invite you to post a link to your article about empathy to our Empathy Center Facebook page. <br />http://Facebook.com/EmpathyCenter<br /><br />Let's Find 1 Million People Who Want to Build a Culture of Empathy and Compassion<br />http://Causes.com/EmpathyEdwin Rutschhttp://CultureOfEmpathy.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-39147899568768108912011-03-30T08:04:01.986-07:002011-03-30T08:04:01.986-07:00I have to declare and interest first: I carry a di...I have to declare and interest first: I carry a diagnosis from Baron-Cohen personally.<br /><br />I'm convinced that as the years go by the Professor is becoming increasingly unhinged.Socrateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12525104555859213125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-61002674272858198692011-03-30T07:59:29.879-07:002011-03-30T07:59:29.879-07:00As a person on the autism spectrum, I resent Baron...As a person on the autism spectrum, I resent Baron-Cohen claiming that high functioning autism is not a disability. Autism has stayed in the population because of De novo mutations not because of evolutionary adaptation. Coming to stretches based on theoretical psychology is par for the course for him.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972394536850151087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21605329.post-39226958095567119102011-03-30T05:40:55.521-07:002011-03-30T05:40:55.521-07:00"borderline, psychopathic, and borderline per...<b>"borderline, psychopathic, and borderline personality disorders"</b><br /><br />Eh? Is that a typo, or does he think that "borderline" is different to "borderline personality disorder"?Neuroskeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06647064768789308157noreply@blogger.com